The Hidden Plot: Vote Now (Does it or does it not exist?)

[honeyphan]

Before voting--here is the link that will take you to the theory of the hidden plot, etc, showing all the symbolism we uncovered (if you'd like to check it out ):

http://phantomgerry.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5996

This thread is intended as a way to vote and express your opinion as to whether you believe the POTO creators told a deeper story through symbolism used. It is not intended to start a battle. Now that the scene summaries are all up, our evidence of things found so far is all out there for anyone's perusal. I don't mind topic-related remarks on this thread, but no debating please. Let's keep this civil.

We are all phans and phamily who enjoy a great movie that has brought us together to form friendships and learn more about each other. So, please, keep in mind: this is only a movie. A fantastic, exceptional movie, yes--lol--but still, it's only a movie. Real people and their feelings are much more important than fictional characters and their lives.

That said--this is your chance not only to vote, but also to express yourself, but only if you wish. Anyone with opposing viewpoints to the HP, I ask just one thing: please, when forming a response, respect the HPers who have devoted so much time and hard work to this theory and keep your answer civil. And those who believe in the HP, please don't post counterattacks of why we believe what we do to any opposing remarks. Everyone is free to give their opinion and make remarks, but I'd prefer this thread to remain debate free. Any questions from newcomers or anyone else belong on the Hidden Plot Chat thread. Thank you so much.

"The Hidden Plot" have become buzz words--almost taboo. I apologize for using such words when I thought up the name for the team/thread. As another HPer recently pointed out-- I believe (now) that the words themselves can cause problems. What I should have said when I started this back in 2005 was that we believe in a "deeper story told through symbolism" But I was trying to think of a short way to tag it--thus, "The Hidden Plot" was born. lol
In a sense, we hidden plotters believe the story is hidden in that you have to discover what the symbolism means to understand what we believe the POTO creators were trying to convey.

Here are my personal views and why I believe the way I do:
I guess it goes without saying, but there is no doubt in my mind that a different story was told through symbolism--a much deeper story, where Erik triumphs and wins his love. I know I'm in the minority in such a belief, and that's fine. For myself, I am satisfied.
Among other things, my ten-year experience in the entertainment industry tells me that what I've found and seen and heard in this movie is genuine, and that there is a much deeper story that's been told through symbolism. In my career, I've learned and taught and know such things as how writers use symbolism in their manuscripts (including screenwriters), and I see a lot of this involved in POTO, as well as other basic tenets of the writing world incorporated into this story, including ones that point to Erik and Christine as the romantic pair (in love with each other). I've heard of writers changing an original piece of published work and doing something more to it, so I know that it's possible and does happen--and could have happened from stage to movie in those many years it took for ALW's POTO to hit the big screen (and DVDs). All that aside, the POTO creators admitted to using a lot of symbolism in the movie, and that some of their props had "a certain symbolism". To me, that is an out and out declaration: we used it--now find out what it means.

I feel a lot of their comments (though not all of them) in interviews and questionaires were evasive or suggestive--hinting to the viewers to look deeper and discover more.
But not everyone wants to do that, and I think they knew that would happen. So they made it an option. A win-win situation either way--for them--and a means not to lose any money from their stage successes, but instead to increase marketing potential/value, while experimenting with their artistic and creative personas.

I also believe there were way too many "coincidences" in the movie for them to be labeled as coincidental or even mistakes. There was a set pattern to everything that happened and all that was shown, as well as a perfect timing for the clues (symbolism) and how they all panned out. All of them fit like puzzle pieces locked together or a silent script being performed.

After the amount of research my team and I have done, (over a year and a half's worth), and with all that's recently been discovered, (which only backs up everything already found), I simply cannot feel any other way. I, like many here, did my homework, and have come up with one conclusion from the result of all the tedious research and hard work: A deeper story was told through symbolism, including a romance between Erik and Christine, and Erik married his love in the end, as well as broke free from the darkness that kept him bound most of his life.
I believe--and saw this to be--a deeper story of unconditional love, forgiveness, and redemption that ended with an inspiring message of triumph and hope.

So, please anyone, (and don't take this wrong), but truthfully nobody can convince me otherwise--the only way I would consider a conflicting opinion pointing to "The Hidden Plot's unlikely existence" is if that person spent the same amount of time viewing and engaging in all the research of the vast amount of symbolism we looked up on a daily basis for well over a year. Only then would I listen and consider the possibility that one doesn't exist. But I know what my eyes and my ears have told me, so I'd be a pretty hard sell, regardless.

But since this isn't a debate, there's no need to contradict my views.
Please, feel free to express your own though.

I may remark to agree with someone or some such thing, but I will not disagree with anyone here, no matter your views. If any questions are posed to me here, again, I will post my answers on the Hidden Plot Chat thread and provide the link for it when I do.

I wrote all the above because I remember the heated debate that occurred when we tried doing this before I posted the summaries, back in April, and what happened as a result.
I don't want a repeat. I would prefer this thread remain open and not be locked, although this thread is a bit different, as it is a voting thread with a poll that won't expire.

Thank you, everyone--:hug:-- and now let the voting begin!

[Ppandora321]

Oooh...I get to be first vote!

I voted....drum roll please....this is so unexpected....option #1!

As you know, honey, I've always believed there was a "hidden plot", ever since I stumbled across the scene summaries back on the WB board. While my thoughts on certain details have changed a bit, are still changing maybe, I do believe it's there. There is just too much symbolism within the movie to be ignored, IMO. There's no doubt in my mind that we are meant to leave the movie believing that there was hope for Erik, that he found love and forgiveness somewhere down the road...

I believe you put it very well here:

A deeper story was told through symbolism, including a romance between Erik and Christine, and Erik married his love in the end, as well as broke free from the darkness that kept him bound most of his life.
I believe--and saw this to be--a deeper story of unconditional love, forgiveness, and redemption that ended with an inspiring message of triumph and hope.

I also agree that the hidden plot has gotten a bad rap in a way; as if it somehow threatens the sanctity of POTO as it's been known. I don't believe that to be the case, personally. I think it enhanced certain aspects of a story that was already there, but stayed true enough to its original version that it should make us all happy, whether we choose to interpret all of the symbolism or not. In the end, it's still ALW's POTO, with all of our beloved characters portrayed in a much more up-close-and-personal way, and no matter what our viewpoints on the details, we can certainly all agree that we share a love for this movie.

[Ingenue]

I voted no, because several big clues were refuted in previous debate.

[Godzuki]

First, before I forget; I just want to say again how impressed/grateful I am with/for all the hard work, long hours and love/passion that went into the HP!

I am still working my way through everything and enjoying every second! I love the HP, it is my favorite version of POTO. The reason I say “version” is a) there are many film/book/ versions out there but b) more importantly I think POTO is a very mysterious story that gets interpreted differently by diff people. I do not think there is any right/wrong way to interpret it, and I truly respect/value/enjoy what every single poster brings to the board. Even when we dont agree, because we're here to open our minds and enjoy what everyone has to share!

Here are my favorite parts/interpretations that I would like to share:

1) I think the ring is the family ring as shown in the Gustave Daae pic in the chapel AOM scene. Christine gives it to Erik in the exact same way he gave it to her when he was proposing. A family heirloom is not something that you leave someone to remember you by IMO

2) I think Erik was waiting to die when he was singing to the music box; IMO he was redeemed and waiting to accept responsibility/punishment for what he had done (murders,manipulation,etc). When Christine returned to give him the ring, she symbolized being pardoned/forgiveness to me. I believe she was asking him to marry her (since he released her from the engagement by telling R/C to leave and forget him). But even more than that, she did not want him to die, she wanted him to live and be what he was meant to be, with or without her (love sometimes painfully means letting someone go and not knowing what is going to happen next). She wanted to give him the strength to go on no matter what. She has the most loving look on her face as she leaves and she is singing AIAOY to Erik. She doesn't know if she is ever going to see him again and its just heartbreaking


3) Erik destroys his lair on the way out and to me this is him breaking the Phantom's “spell”. He has used the wigs/masks/Phantom personna as a crutch and is walking for the first time without them. He destroys his lair (hell) on the way out, breaking its hold on him. Even his shirt is white (= good, like Raoul's white shirt and horse). When we last see Erik he has this “it is finished” look on his face, it was the hardest thing he has ever had to do, leave all that he has ever known behind. But he did it, it took everything out of him. He triumphantly leaves the lair and I think Meg being smart and mysterious like her Mama figures that out when she sees the mask!

4) Christine went to the cemetery alone. Raoul would have been happy to take her,even keep a distance. I believe she wanted to see Erik again. I think WYWSHA was about how we want to live in our childhood cuz its safe, but we have to say good bye to the past and accept becoming adults with all the hardship and responsibility. I think because of her faith she wasn't saying goodbye to her father, because she would believe that she would see him again someday in heaven. I don't think she was saying goodbye to Erik either, because she seems so happy to see him again (WC). I think she wanted him at this point but didn't know if she could separate good/bad Erik and that was her struggle

5) The monkey box on grave makes no sense to me unless it was a peace offering from Raoul. Decades have passed so I wouldn't think Erik would be on their minds so much, unless she had ended up with him. I think E/R were reconciling in this scene, "making peace"

6) “Countess” engraved on Christine's gravestone, while Raoul was Vicomte. The royal shields and white horse in lair symbolized to me that Erik was Raoul's brother or a deChagney and held a title of nobility. As Erik was pardoned (per my point #2), he reclaimed his title or perhaps he was pardoned by the king/emperor (I think they favored Christine with the standing ovation after TOM). The black ribbon around C's neck on gravestone and all the engraved roses symbolized that she was Erik's and he was hers.

I will add more as I think of it!

[Erika Giry]

I voted no, obviously. I think it does make for some good reading, however.

[kcjdwill]

Hello all,

I know it has been a long time since I have been here but I have lurked some and was happy when I came upon this thread.

Yes, I believe in a hidden plot. I believe 100%. To me, the biggest clues were the countess on the headstone and the appearance of Angel in the cemetery showing two separate entities.

I want to add that I enjoy this movie on all levels and sometimes, I just like to watch it and not think about the hidden plot but just have my heart broken for Phantom as he gives up the only thing he loves for the sake of love itself…But that doesn't change my belief in the hidden plot. Too many clues support it in my opinion.

In retrospect, I think the days on the old board when we were first discovering clues and sharing them and putting them together were the happiest days I had regarding POTO and I miss that. This will bring back a little of that for me. Okay, I am done babbling for one morning. Yes, I believe….I absolutely do…

[Ppandora321]

KC????

Is it really YOU????

Quick....CPR....the shock....the flashbacks....

Seriously...welcome back, KC! Nice to see you here again!

And, may I say that I agree with you: two of the big factors for me are the Countess on the headstone (and all of the clues re: that) and the final cemetery scene...for me, the end of DOM, when she gives him the ring and all that follows through to him smashing the mirrors and leaving, also shows me that he is taking a different path than was expected.

[ayesha]

This thread is intended as a way to vote and express your opinion as to whether you believe the POTO creators told a deeper story through symbolism used.

Here are my personal views and why I believe the way I do:
I guess it goes without saying, but there is no doubt in my mind that a different story was told through symbolism--a much deeper story, where Erik triumphs and wins his love. I know I'm in the minority in such a belief, and that's fine. For myself, I am satisfied.
Among other things, my ten-year experience in the entertainment industry tells me that what I've found and seen and heard in this movie is genuine, and that there is a much deeper story that's been told through symbolism. In my career, I've learned and taught and know such things as how writers use symbolism in their manuscripts (including screenwriters), and I see a lot of this involved in POTO, as well as other basic tenets of the writing world incorporated into this story, including ones that point to Erik and Christine as the romantic pair (in love with each other). I've heard of writers changing an original piece of published work and doing something more to it, so I know that it's possible and does happen--and could have happened from stage to movie in those many years it took for ALW's POTO to hit the big screen (and DVDs). All that aside, the POTO creators admitted to using a lot of symbolism in the movie, and that some of their props had "a certain symbolism". To me, that is an out and out declaration: we used it--now find out what it means.

I feel a lot of their comments (though not all of them) in interviews and questionaires were evasive or suggestive--hinting to the viewers to look deeper and discover more.
But not everyone wants to do that, and I think they knew that would happen. So they made it an option. A win-win situation either way--for them--and a means not to lose any money from their stage successes, but instead to increase marketing potential/value, while experimenting with their artistic and creative personas.

Hi, honey! I think you'll be surprised how many people think along the same lines as you do.

I also liked your choices as far as the poll goes because the answer I choose fits my thoughts exactly!

While I may not agree with every nuance of the HP, I do believe that the movie tells a deeper story. While I've felt sorry for Erik in all of the other versions that I've seen, I never questioned the ending: That Christine loved Raoul and spent the rest of her life with him. But with ALW's movie, I see a different ending; maybe not so much as a different story - but more like an expanded story. Yes, there IS definitely much more to the movie, and I think the creators intentionally made it that way.

Why else would we still be talking about it, discussing it, dissecting it, etc.?

In retrospect, I think the days on the old board when we were first discovering clues and sharing them and putting them together were the happiest days I had regarding POTO and I miss that. This will bring back a little of that for me. Okay, I am done babbling for one morning. Yes, I believe….I absolutely do…

KC! So good to see you here! And I agree with you wholeheartedly! I miss the WB days, too.

[tatiana]

Good morning, honey!...

Well, I have to say, that after seeing POTO for the first time, I was totally heartbroken. And, each time after that, the level of my distress only deepened for the Phantom. My sympathy and bond to the Phantom grew each time I watched it, so much so, that I had three anxiety attacks that led me to the emergency room on three separate occassions. I do have to admit here, that it was December of last year and just before the holiday season, so the stress of shopping, cooking, baking and cleaning weighed heavily on my shoulders. But, I've experienced that sort of stress for many years and realized that it was the Phantom's story that had pushed me over the edge.

It's not easy trying to contain ones anxiety when it's at the level where you feel that you cannot breathe. I was prescribed medication which was a Godsend for me. Even though I tried to convey my feelings of compassion for the Phantom to my family, they just couldn't understand how I could be so emotional over a movie. It is just a movie, a fantasy, right? Even though they tried to give me what I was looking for, the support I needed, their lack of understanding made it even more difficult for me. So, the Phantom's story just continued to take hold of my heart and mind and forced me to remember growing up as an over weight child and the abuse that made me hate going to school. This is where I formed my bond with the Phantom and led me in a search on the internet (my first time ever using the computer!) to find someone, something that would welcome me and the compassion that I felt for the Phantom. Then, I found PG.net and became a part of something that quite frankly became an extremely important part of my life. I found a "home" here and made friends with people that understood my bond with the Phantom. Eventually, I stopped my medication and things went back to being relatively normal again. I got a great deal from being here and nurturing my friendships here.

But, even though my friendships here were growing and becoming a major part of my life, I still sympathized with the Phantom. Then, the people from the WB board joined (ladies that are extremely friendly, respectful and caring, in my opinion!) our Phamily here and I was introduced to something that I never, in all my wildest dreams could have imagined even existed and, that was the possiblity of the existence of a Hidden Plot in the movie. So, as threads were added on, discussing events that happened in the movie and how symbolism played an important part of it, I became intrigued with the possibility of a Hidden Plot and I would go back with that knowledge as I watched the movie in a new light.

So, I continued to follow the Hidden Plot as it became available and each time I sat down to watch POTO I was in total awe! I saw things that I had never even noticed before and I was amazed!

And, at the end of this rather lengthy post, I must vote and side with the ladies that put so much effort into their research of the Hidden Plot and say that I agree, the POTO creators tell a much deeper story with symbolism. I am, in no way as inteligent and knowledgeable as these fine ladies are in the research of different colors, lyrics, instuments, the French version or Spanish version and the many other things that come into play revolving around the Hidden Plot, but I do know what I see as I watch the movie now.

And, that is, as I have grown, and left behind an almost tragic experience myself, I've found love and light in my own life and, I see the very same for the Phantom. I see Erik and Christine share a life full of love, happiness and music together, something that, in my humble opinion Erik is so very worthy of.

Thank you Honey and team for opening up a whole new world for me and the Phantom!

Yes, I believe there is a Hidden Plot...

T.

[Godzuki]

Tatiana - thank you for sharing your story, I know that took courage and you may have inspired others to come forward and get help too I admire you !

I am glad you got help and am so glad this board and the HP have been so healing to you, thats what its all about isnt it?

And that is so sweet and cute that you call us your "phamily" - I really like that!

Here's the POTO version of "We are Family"
"We are phamily
I got all my sisters with me
We are phamily
Get up everybody and sing!"